H πολιορκία της Βιέννης και οι Τάταροι του Λίπκα

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H πολιορκία της Βιέννης και οι Τάταροι του Λίπκα

Δημοσίευσηαπό Προέλλην » 26 Δεκ 2019, 01:02

Νήμα ξεβλαχέματος :asd03:

If we examine the battle closely, we can understand it rather differently: as a battle based on inter-ethnic cooperation. After all, John III Sobieski (1629-96), the king of the multilingual and multi-religious Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, might not have won the battle were it not for the help of his country’s Sunni Muslim Tatars, known as the Lipka Tatars. ‘Tatar’ was the common name for Turkic-speaking, semi-nomadic people living on or around the immense steppes of the Eurasian continent.

After the century-long ‘Pax Mongolica’ from the mid-13th century (also called the ‘Tatar Peace’) and the dissolution of the Mongol empire, a distinguished group of Muslim Tatars, fleeing the great Turko-Mongol ruler Tamerlane, asked the Christian grand duke of Lithuania (Lipka in their language) for asylum in 1397. Duke Vytautas, a national hero in Lithuanian history, welcomed them. He secured for them religious liberty and even exempted them from taxation. In return, the Lipka Tatars provided their new country, and later Poland, with military assistance, initially against Tamerlane.

The Lipka Tatars and their light cavalry became a vital factor in almost every battle in Polish-Lithuanian history: in September 1939, the 1st Tatar Squadron was among the last Polish army units to fight the invading infantry of Nazi Germany. As the Polish president Bronisław Komorowski declared in Gdańsk, in November 2010, upon the dedication of Poland’s first monument to the Tartars:

There was no enemy of Poland against whom they did not draw their weapons for the good of their motherland. They fought and forced out Russians, Swedes and even Turks despite their common religion – Islam. Without them the memorable victory in the Battle of Vienna would not have been possible and for this reason King John III Sobieski took them to his heart.

Sobieski had actually taken the Tatars to his heart some three decades earlier. In the 1650s, he was sent on a diplomatic mission to Constantinople, today’s Istanbul, where he learnt the Tatar language. When Sweden attacked the Polish capital in 1656, Sobieski was in charge of 2,000 men from the regiment of the Crimean Tatar cavalry, who defended the Poles. This battle was part of the ‘Swedish Deluge’, in which the Swedes destroyed more than 100 Polish cities and as many churches, described as the worst attack on Poland before the Second World War.

After Sobieski became king of the Commonwealth in 1674, he freed the Lipka Tatars from all taxation, raised their payments to match those of the Cossacks, and reinstated their former privileges (lost during the Counter-Reformation) including permission to rebuild their mosques. The Tatars also received Crown Estates land in Podlasia, in eastern Poland – as well as the districts of Brest, Kobryn and Grono in today’s Belarus – to ensure that they would continue to serve with distinction in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth army.

Consequently, when Sobieski set off to lift Vienna’s siege in 1683 (now in command of the armies of the Holy Roman Empire and the Habsburgs), he brought with him the light cavalry of the Muslim Tatars, operating under the leadership of the Lipka Tatar lieutenant Samuel Murza Krzeczowski. During the battle, where they fought alongside Sobieski’s more famous Winged Hussars, the Lipka Tatars wore straw sprigs in their helmets to avoid being mistaken for Crimean Tatars, who were fighting for the Ottomans. The Lipka Tatars wreaked havoc by using their famous tactic of feigning retreat before turning to envelop the enemy. After the battle, Sobieski wrote to his wife Marysieńka from the camp by Szenauna: ‘Our Tatars are entertaining themselves with falcons they have brought with them; they are guarding the prisoners, and are proving to be loyal and trustworthy.’

That loyalty and trustworthiness was to be proven again three weeks later, when Sobieski and his troops were chasing the retreating Ottoman forces. They clashed at the Battle of Párkány, by the Danube River on 7 October 1683. At one point in the mayhem, Sobieski was cut off from his soldiers and in danger of being slain. He was saved by his lieutenant Krzeczowski, according to tradition, after which Sobieski promoted the Lipka Tatar Krzeczowski to colonel, and granted him an estate in Kruszyniany, in today’s eastern Poland. Sobieski later visited Krzeczowski and thanked him on his way back from a Sejm (parliament) assembly in Grodno. People in the town can still point out the old lime trees under which the two met and chatted.

Not only did a Muslim soldier save the life of the ‘liberator of Europe’, but there is no ruler so revered among the Muslim Tatars as John III Sobieski. By his actions he ensured the later construction of several mosques in the region, still standing today. Sobieski is also the European king who can be credited with securing ‘the only example of a lasting Muslim community in a non-Islamic European country. A community that has throughout the ages enjoyed the same rights and privileges until today,’ as the historian Boguslaw R Zagórski has pointed out.

cont...
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Re: H πολιορκία της Βιέννης και οι Τάταροι του Λίπκα

Δημοσίευσηαπό Προέλλην » 26 Δεκ 2019, 01:15

The other side of the Battle of Vienna was multi-religious as well. The Ottomans, led by the Sunni Muslim Sultan Mehmed IV (1642-93), were allied with the Roman Catholic Sun King of France, Louis XIV (1638-1715). The Ottomans and the French agreed to a formal alliance in the early 1530s, which remained unbroken until Napoleon briefly invaded Egypt a quarter of a millennium later. The Franco-Ottoman alliance is the longest-lasting peace agreement in the history of France.

Louis XIV was a Roman Catholic just like the rulers of the Habsburg Empire in Vienna. That did not, however, make them natural allies, for Louis XIV desired to be Europe’s most powerful Christian monarch. He used the Battle of Vienna to increase his standing. When the Ottomans closed in on Vienna, France bound up Habsburg forces by sending troops to their western front. No wonder the Sun King’s enemies nicknamed him ‘The Most Christian Turk’.

Already in 1679 Louis XIV had tried in vain to persuade the Ottomans to support the Magyar Rebellion against the Habsburg Empire in Vienna. The figure that triggered the revolt was the Lutheran Protestant and aristocrat Emeric Thököly (1657-1705). Opposing the Counter-Reformation suppression of Protestants by the Catholic Habsburgers, Thököly received support from the Sun King to start the war against Vienna in 1678, building on the Magyar Rebellion and the peasant kuruc uprisings of the early 1670s.

To further his cause, the Lutheran Thököly allied with the sultan Mehmed IV in Constantinople, and in November 1682 he was named the king of Upper Hungary (today, mostly Slovakia). This became a vassal state under the Ottomans – paying tribute to the sultan to receive the religious freedom for the Protestants that the Papal states would not grant.

Thököly and his soldiers were at the Battle of Vienna fighting for the Ottomans alongside the other Ottoman-Christian vassal states, Wallachia and Moldova – both Eastern Orthodox monarchies in today’s Romania. Though Thököly and his Protestants were on the losing side, the sultan gave him the title of count and several estates in Galata, in today’s Turkey, where he settled with his wife.

The Protestant countries would have gladly seen the Holy Roman Empire fall to the Ottomans

Thököly was but one of several Christian leaders who sought support from the sultan in Constantinople. Another is the Cossack Petro Doroshenko (1627-98), who led the Cossack Hetmanate, a state in central Ukraine, and fought the Polish in the 1660s with the help of Crimean Tatars. In March 1669, the Cossack Council of Kursun approved Doroshenko’s proposal to make an alliance with the Ottomans in order to stand up to Polish and Russian incursions.

In western Europe, new Protestant states, formed after the Reformation of the early 16th century, often had high hopes for help from the Ottoman Muslims against the Pope and the Catholic powers of Spain and Vienna. Take the Netherlands’ William I of Orange (1533-84), the ‘Father of the Fatherland’, who in 1566 sent an envoy to Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent requesting aid in his struggle against the Spanish suppression of Protestant subjects. And in 1574, Sultan Murad III (1546-95) sent a letter to the Protestants of the Netherlands and Spain declaring that Lutherans and Calvinists had more in common with Sunni Islam than Catholicism: ‘As you, for your part, do not worship idols, you have banished the idols and portraits and “bells” from churches, and declared your faith by stating that God Almighty is one and Holy Jesus is His Prophet…’

Such a historical background can explain why the Polish king John III Sobieski and his Muslim Tatars were the only ones to come to the rescue of the Habsburgs in Vienna. The Protestant countries would have gladly seen the Holy Roman Empire fall to the Ottomans. They had fought the Habsburgs and the Pope, and for the most part been allied with the Ottoman forces, during the 30 Years’ War (1618-48) – the bloodiest of the so-called ‘Christian civil wars’ after the Reformation.

So the Battle of Vienna wasn’t a war between the cross and the crescent. It was not a clash of civilisations, a mighty Christian victory over Islam. Rather, Sunni Muslim Tatars were vital in helping the Catholic Polish king on the one side – just as Lutheran Hungarians were allied with the Sunni Muslim Sultan on the other. The year 1683, in the end, was just another year of battles over power and influence between the great states of Europe. Loyalties crossed all borders of faith and ethnicity. Sobieski and his allies never ‘saved Europe’, nor Christianity, despite the claims of plaques, textbooks, and encyclopaedias. Rather, the ruler of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was Europe’s foremost saviour of Muslim life and culture in northern Europe. The Battle of Vienna was a multicultural drama; an example of the complex and paradoxical twists of European history. There never has been such a thing as ‘the united Christian armies of Europe’.

Nor did the Battle of Vienna matter as much in European history as some would like to believe. After 1683, the Ottomans ruled the Balkans for two more centuries; the majority of Greeks, Bulgarians, Romanians, Serbs and Croats stayed as Christian as ever, and are today more Christian than the Austrians. As for the Sunni Muslim Ottomans, their primary enemy from the 16th to the 18th century was no European state, but the neighbouring Safavid empire of Persia and its new Twelver school of Shia Islam.

https://aeon.co/essays/the-battle-of-vi ... d-crescent

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Re: H πολιορκία της Βιέννης και οι Τάταροι του Λίπκα

Δημοσίευσηαπό Προέλλην » 26 Δεκ 2019, 01:19

Oι μουσουλμάνοι σουνίτες Τάταροι του Λίπκα:

Εικόνα

Justly renowned as the saviors of Christendom, many remember King Jan Sobieski of Poland and his army, particularly the Wing Hussars, as the heroes of the Battle of Vienna of 1683, and rightly so. However, the heroic Polish warriors were only part of a much larger force which it seems popular history has forgotten. Some of the battles participants have been marginalized (such as Duke Charles of Lorraine), others such as Emperor Leopold I have been demonized with nationalistic vehemence. Still others have been simply forgotten by the popular imagination, as is the case of the Lipka Tatars.

Originating in the White Horde, a subdivision of the Mongol-led Golden Horde, in 1397 after a war against the Amir Timur the Tatar Khan Tokhtamysh settled with the remnants of his people as vassals of the Duke of Lithuania, Vytautas the Great. The Muslim Tatars soon become an integral unit of Lithuanian military forces and continued in this role during the time of the various unions of the Kingdom of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which culminated in the Union of Lublin in 1569. They continued to serve their common fatherland faithfully, adopting the Civilization of Christendom and many elements of the Polish and Lithuanian Catholic culture, until the disastrous Second Polish–Ottoman War, and the Lipka rebellion in 1672.

Around 3,000 soldiers of the Tatar cavalry rebelled and joined the Ottoman Turks under the leadership of rotmistrz Aleksander Kryczyński. Made Bey of the fortress of Bar, Kryczyński was killed by the Tatars under his command rioting against their subjugation by the Turkish Sultan. In 1674 the fortress of Bar was besieged by Jan Sobieski, then Grand Hetman of the Polish Army, who wisely offered to restore to any Tatars who would rejoin the Commonwealth the ancient rights of the Tatar people. Earlier during the Swedish Deluge of Poland, 2,000 Tatars served directly under Sobieski’s command, and this offer of amnesty effectively ended the rebellion.

Elected King in the same year and crowned in 1676, Jan III Sobieski made good his promise and through the Sejm restored the ancient rights of the Tatars, and gave them holdings from his personal lands. In 1683, honoring his alliance with Holy Roman Emperor Leopold I, King Jan set out to relieve the Kaiserstadt Vienna with a force of 27,000 Poles, including several regiments of Lipka Tatars, who wore sprigs of straw upon their helmets to differentiate them from their Turkish allied co-nationals. Joining the 47,000 strong Imperial force under Duke Charles of Lorraine, the Poles and Tatars charged from the Kahlenberg, and the relief army won the field against the Turks, Crimean Tatars, and Protestant Hungarian rebels under Imre Thököly. As the campaign continued, the Polish army was overwhelmed by the retreating Turkish army at Párkány in the Kingdom of Hungary, and King Jan was cut off from his soldiers. His life was saved by the daring of the Muslim Tatar Lieutenant Samuel Mirza Krzeczowski, a participant in the battle of Vienna, who was promoted to the rank of colonel and rewarded with the estate of Kruszyniany.

The Lipka Tatars remained a vital military unit of the Polish armed forces, serving with distinction the reborn Polish state against the Soviets in 1920 “under the green banner of the prophet.” In 1939 the First Tartar Squadron led by Aleksander Jeljaszewicz resisted the Nazi invasion, charging the German infantry in the last act of a mounted Tatar unit of the Polish Army. Unlike the Kurucok of Hungary, the Tatars devotion to their religion did not stand in the way of their loyalty to their Polish-Lithuanian Fatherland and the Civilization of Christendom. They with the ancient Böszörmény of Hungary and the more recent Bosniaks of Austria-Hungary stand as an example to the Muslims in Europe of today, Staunch defenders of the European tradition who suffered much under the nationalist regimes victorious in 19th and 20th centuries, they are to be honored among the victors of the battle for Christendom against the tyranny of the Ottoman Sultan, and as loyal servants of the prophet, and of their true Lord, who brought them out of the East to the defense of the West.

https://thewarforchristendom.com/2017/0 ... of-vienna/
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Re: H πολιορκία της Βιέννης και οι Τάταροι του Λίπκα

Δημοσίευσηαπό Προέλλην » 26 Δεκ 2019, 01:24

According to some estimates, by 1590–1591 there were about 200,000 Lipka Tatars living in the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and about 400 mosques serving them. According to the Risāle-yi Tatar-i Leh (trans: Message Concerning the Tatars of Poland, an account of the Lipka Tatars written for Suleiman the Magnificent by an anonymous Polish Muslim during a stay in Constantinople in 1557–1558 on his way to Mecca) there were 100 Lipka Tatar settlements with mosques in Poland. The largest communities existed in the cities of Lida, Navahrudak and Iwye. There was a Lipka Tatar settlement in Vilnius, known as Totorių Lukiškės, Tatar quarter in Trakai and in Minsk, today's capital of Belarus, known as Tatarskaya Slabada.

In the year 1672, the Tatar subjects rose up in open rebellion against the Commonwealth. This was the widely remembered Lipka rebellion. Thanks to the efforts of King John III Sobieski, who was held in great esteem by the Tatar soldiers, many of the Lipkas seeking asylum and service in the Turkish army returned to his command and participated in the struggles with the Ottoman Empire up to the Treaty of Karlowitz in 1699, including the Battle of Vienna (1683) that was to turn the tide of Islamic expansion into Europe and mark the beginning of the end for the Ottoman Empire.


Εικόνα

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars



Εικόνα

His father, Valteris P. Bučinskis, who later adjusted his name to Walter Buchinsky to sound more "American", was from Druskininkai in southern Lithuania. Bronson's mother, Mary (née Valinsky), whose parents were from Lithuania, was born in the coal mining town of Tamaqua, Pennsylvania. The family had Lipka Tatar roots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bronson
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Re: H πολιορκία της Βιέννης και οι Τάταροι του Λίπκα

Δημοσίευσηαπό Adminović » 26 Δεκ 2019, 13:44

Η Βιέννη είχε δεχτεί πολλές επιθέσεις από τα Οθωμανά. Τις απέκρουσαν επιτυχώς όλες οι Αυστριακοί (με την καθοριστική συμμετοχή των υπηκόων της Αυστρίας, Κροατών, Σέρβων και Σλοβένων βεβαίως βεβαίως :D ).

Στη συγκεκριμένη περίπτωση οι Πολωνοί (με τον όποιο στρατό είχαν, με Τατάρους κλπ) προκάλεσαν πανωλεθρία στους Οθωμανούς, οπότε δεν το ξανασκέφτηκαν οι Οθωμανοί να καταλάβουν τη Βιέννη.

Χαρακτηριστική είναι πχ η μάχη του Σίσακ, ενός κροατικού φρουρίου που οι Οθωμανοί ήθελαν να κατακτήσουν, ώστε να είναι ορθάνοιχτος μετά ο δρόμος για τη Βιέννη. Παρότι επιτέθηκαν με πολυάριθμο στρατό, δεν τα κατάφεραν, χάρη κυρίως στην ηρωική αντίσταση 800 Κροατών και Σλοβένων που το φρουρούσαν, που -μετά την άφιξη και των ενισχύσεων- αντεπιτέθηκαν και τα έκαναν κεμπάμπ τα Οθωμανά.

Εικόνα


The Battle of Sisak (Croatian: Bitka kod Siska; Slovene: Bitka pri Sisku; German: Schlacht bei Sissek; Turkish: Kulpa Bozgunu) was fought on 22 June 1593 between Ottoman regional forces of Telli Hasan Pasha, a notable commander (Beglerbeg) of the Eyalet of Bosnia, and a combined Christian army from the Habsburg lands, mainly Kingdom of Croatia and Inner Austria. The battle took place at Sisak, central Croatia, at the confluence of the rivers Sava and Kupa.

Earlier in 1591 and 1592 the Ottomans had two failed attempts of capturing the Sisak fortress, but managed to take the strategically important fortress of Bihać in 1592. The Sisak fortress was again besieged by a large Ottoman force on 15 June 1593. The garrison in Sisak was commanded by Blaž Đurak and Matija Fintić, both from the Diocese of Zagreb.

An army under the supreme command of the Styrian general Ruprecht von Eggenberg was quickly assembled to break the siege. The Croatian troops were led by the Ban of Croatia, Thomas Erdődy, and major forces from the Duchy of Carniola and the Duchy of Carinthia were led by Andreas von Auersperg, nicknamed the "Carniolan Achilles". They made a surprise attack on the besieging forces on 22 June. The ensuing battle resulted in a crushing defeat for the regional Ottoman forces, triggering the Long War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sisak
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Re: H πολιορκία της Βιέννης και οι Τάταροι του Λίπκα

Δημοσίευσηαπό Τλαξκαλτέκος » 26 Δεκ 2019, 14:02

Adminović έγραψε:Τις απέκρουσαν επιτυχώς όλες οι Αυστριακοί (με την καθοριστική συμμετοχή των υπηκόων της Αυστρίας, Κροατών, Σέρβων και Σλοβένων βεβαίως βεβαίως :D ).

Αυτός ο πολυεθνοτισμός ήταν ένα απ' τα πλεονεκτήματα του στρατού των Αυστριακών. :giggle02:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karánsebes
0 .
Τους μεν κενούς ασκούς το πνεύμα διίστησι , τους δε ανοήτους ανθρώπους το οίημα. ( Σωκράτης [ στον Στοβαίο ] )

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Re: H πολιορκία της Βιέννης και οι Τάταροι του Λίπκα

Δημοσίευσηαπό Adminović » 26 Δεκ 2019, 14:11

Τλαξκαλτέκος έγραψε:
Adminović έγραψε:Τις απέκρουσαν επιτυχώς όλες οι Αυστριακοί (με την καθοριστική συμμετοχή των υπηκόων της Αυστρίας, Κροατών, Σέρβων και Σλοβένων βεβαίως βεβαίως :D ).

Αυτός ο πολυεθνοτισμός ήταν ένα απ' τα πλεονεκτήματα του στρατού των Αυστριακών. :giggle02:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karánsebes


Αυτό όντως ήταν ένα μειονέκτημα, διότι δεν μπορούσαν και να συνεννοηθούν μεταξύ τους.
Σε περιπτώσεις πάντως που ο στρατός αποτελούνταν από άτομα που μιλούσαν την ίδια ή παρόμοια γλώσσα, μαμούσαν και έδερναν.
Και βέβαια το μεγάλο τους πλεονέκτημα ήταν η μαχητικότητα των Κροατών, την οποία έχουν υμνήσει πολλοί (εχθροί και φίλοι). :D
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Re: H πολιορκία της Βιέννης και οι Τάταροι του Λίπκα

Δημοσίευσηαπό Τλαξκαλτέκος » 26 Δεκ 2019, 14:17

Adminović έγραψε:
Τλαξκαλτέκος έγραψε:Αυτός ο πολυεθνοτισμός ήταν ένα απ' τα πλεονεκτήματα του στρατού των Αυστριακών. :giggle02:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karánsebes


Αυτό όντως ήταν ένα μειονέκτημα, διότι δεν μπορούσαν και να συνεννοηθούν μεταξύ τους.
Σε περιπτώσεις πάντως που ο στρατός αποτελούνταν από άτομα που μιλούσαν την ίδια ή παρόμοια γλώσσα, μαμούσαν και έδερναν.
Και βέβαια το μεγάλο τους πλεονέκτημα ήταν η μαχητικότητα των Κροατών, την οποία έχουν υμνήσει πολλοί (εχθροί και φίλοι). :D

Ποια μαχητικότητα ; :laugh1: Aυτοί ήταν συνεχώς υποταγμένοι σε Βυζαντινούς , Βενετούς, Ούγγρους , Αυστριακούς και Οθωμανούς. :pardon: Δεν τους λες και Μανιάτες , Σουλιώτες , Σφακιανούς και Αγραφιώτες. :ailadara: Η τελευταία τους μεγάλη νίκη που θυμάμαι είναι κατά των Βουλγάρων του Συμεών.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian–Bulgarian_battle_of_926
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Τους μεν κενούς ασκούς το πνεύμα διίστησι , τους δε ανοήτους ανθρώπους το οίημα. ( Σωκράτης [ στον Στοβαίο ] )

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Re: H πολιορκία της Βιέννης και οι Τάταροι του Λίπκα

Δημοσίευσηαπό Adminović » 26 Δεκ 2019, 14:41

Τλαξκαλτέκος έγραψε:Ποια μαχητικότητα ; :laugh1: Aυτοί ήταν συνεχώς υποταγμένοι σε Βυζαντινούς , Βενετούς, Ούγγρους , Αυστριακούς και Οθωμανούς. :pardon: Δεν τους λες και Μανιάτες , Σουλιώτες , Σφακιανούς και Αγραφιώτες. :ailadara: Η τελευταία τους μεγάλη νίκη που θυμάμαι είναι κατά των Βουλγάρων του Συμεών.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian–Bulgarian_battle_of_926

Οι Κροάτες είναι αυτόνομο βασίλειο από τον 10ο αιώνα. Ακόμα και εντός της Αυστρίας ή της Ουγγαρίας είχαν διατηρήσει την αυτονομία τους και είχαν μέχρι και δικό τους τοπικό κοινοβούλιο και διοίκηση και δικούς τους αντιπροσώπους στην κεντρική διοίκηση.
Πήξε ελεύθερα Τουρκορωμιέ απόγονε των Αλγερινών πειρατών. :laugh1: :laugh1: :laugh1: :laugh1:

Οι Μανιάτες και οι Σουλιώτες τί πέτυχαν ακριβώς;
Που έστηναν κώλο συνέχεια στους Τούρκους και κάθε τόσο έκαναν και καμιά επανάστα αν δεν τα έβρισκαν στη μοιρασιά με τους Μπέηδες και τους Πασάδες και μετά υπέγραφαν δηλώσεις μετανοίας ότι αποδέχονται την εξουσία του σουλτάνου;;; :laugh1: :laugh1: :laugh1:
0 .
Ο ψεκασμός είναι υγεία, είναι πολιτισμός!

Σκοτώνει βακτήρια, ιούς, μύκητες, ζιζάνια, καθώς και πάσης φύσεως παράσιτα
. :yesyes:

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Re: H πολιορκία της Βιέννης και οι Τάταροι του Λίπκα

Δημοσίευσηαπό Τλαξκαλτέκος » 26 Δεκ 2019, 15:28

Adminović έγραψε:
Τλαξκαλτέκος έγραψε:Ποια μαχητικότητα ; :laugh1: Aυτοί ήταν συνεχώς υποταγμένοι σε Βυζαντινούς , Βενετούς, Ούγγρους , Αυστριακούς και Οθωμανούς. :pardon: Δεν τους λες και Μανιάτες , Σουλιώτες , Σφακιανούς και Αγραφιώτες. :ailadara: Η τελευταία τους μεγάλη νίκη που θυμάμαι είναι κατά των Βουλγάρων του Συμεών.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian–Bulgarian_battle_of_926

Οι Κροάτες είναι αυτόνομο βασίλειο από τον 10ο αιώνα. Ακόμα και εντός της Αυστρίας ή της Ουγγαρίας είχαν διατηρήσει την αυτονομία τους και είχαν μέχρι και δικό τους τοπικό κοινοβούλιο και διοίκηση και δικούς τους αντιπροσώπους στην κεντρική διοίκηση.
Πήξε ελεύθερα Τουρκορωμιέ απόγονε των Αλγερινών πειρατών. :laugh1: :laugh1: :laugh1: :laugh1:

Οι Μανιάτες και οι Σουλιώτες τί πέτυχαν ακριβώς;
Που έστηναν κώλο συνέχεια στους Τούρκους και κάθε τόσο έκαναν και καμιά επανάστα αν δεν τα έβρισκαν στη μοιρασιά με τους Μπέηδες και τους Πασάδες και μετά υπέγραφαν δηλώσεις μετανοίας ότι αποδέχονται την εξουσία του σουλτάνου;;; :laugh1: :laugh1: :laugh1:

Αχαχούχα τι λέει ;;;!!! Και τα ελληνικά χωριά επί Οθωμανοκρατίας αυτόνομα ήταν. Έκαναν και εκλογές τοπικής αυτοδιοίκησης.

Οι Κροάτες ήταν 800 χρόνια στην σκλαβιά. :D :D :D

Petar was the last native king of Croatia, and the personal union with Kingdom of Hungary lasted until 1918. :oleole: :oleole: :oleole:

Εικόνα
The Last Croatian King by Oton Iveković

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petar_Snačić


κάθε τόσο έκαναν και καμιά επανάστα

Τα είπες όλα. Δεν χρειάζεται να προσθέσω κάτι. :okkey:
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Τους μεν κενούς ασκούς το πνεύμα διίστησι , τους δε ανοήτους ανθρώπους το οίημα. ( Σωκράτης [ στον Στοβαίο ] )


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